WL error - 3 teams, even points, calculation mistake - REPAI
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17:02:34, 29.12.17

Hello,

I saw that the system made a mistake when it was calculating final positions in WL groups, to be more exact, in group I where 3 teams "share" 1st place with 8 points.

We can see that Gynov and Russian team made it to the playoffs while Slovenian team did not make it but there was a mistake in calculating. Here are the standings between those 3 teams which have 8 points:

1. HC Gyňov - matches: 4:3 and 3:4 - goals 7:7, total goal difference +8 goals -> CORRECT 1st place
2. Крылья - matches: 3:2 and 3:4 - goals 6:6, total goal difference +9 goals -> INCORRECT (should be at 3rd place)
3. Junaki Planice - matches: 2:3 and 4:3 - goals 6:6, total goal difference +11 goals -> INCORRECT (should be at 2nd place)

We can see that Slovenian and Russian teams have almost the same stats except total goal difference which is in favour of Slovenian team, therefore, Slovenian team should be at 2nd place in group and not the Russian one.

Admins, Icko - repair this ASAP.

RR

muffty
09:58:57, 30.12.17

Isnt that, because Junaki lost the Game against the Russian Team?

10:02:32, 30.12.17

Yes they did, but on the other hand they have beaten Gynov - so are Junaki better than Gynov then? You could say that in case if there wad no Gynov included in this scenario. Yes, then Junaki would be 3rd.

muffty
10:06:25, 30.12.17

Now im curious what the Admins will say..

12:13:49, 30.12.17

The rules in this case are well known (or at least, they should be). If teams are tied in head-to-head matches and tied in head-to-head goals, then total goal difference should be the next criterion.

22:47:53, 30.12.17

RR 12:13:49, 30.12.17 The rules in this case are well known (or at least, they should be). If teams are tied in head-to-head matches and tied in head-to-head goals, then total goal difference should be the next criterion.

Why should total goal difference come before the direct result? After all, they are both stats that take into account the whole group. It seems to me the correct way to separate 2 teams, if they are tied according to all criteria in the 3-way standings you posted, is to go by the direct result in their match.

23:09:48, 30.12.17

No, you cant just look at h2h between these 2 teams, because they are already 3 teams in question. Read rules of any official competition (Uefa CL for example).

muffty
14:55:32, 31.12.17

But do we have the same rules here?
i never read that anyway, so thats why i asked too.
same question for u20 WC aso...

15:32:12, 31.12.17

You cannot make a rule like Bizzy said because it is totally wrong and not logical.

muffty
16:12:50, 31.12.17

@RR

I asked, because did icko write the rules for that anywhere??

16:35:52, 31.12.17

No, the rules are not written for this situation.

15:48:54, 01.01.18

RR 16:35:52, 31.12.17 No, the rules are not written for this situation.

Well, what I said was, since 3-way standings gets the 2 teams tied on all possible criteria then the next logical step is to do a 2-way tie-breaker between them. Is it clear now? It sounds perfectly logical to me.

Nevo
19:38:33, 01.01.18

Correct me if Im wrong here but the the outcome is calculated on individual result between the teams and since 2 games ended draw (OT) the only team that lost will end up at 3rd place. Fair enough for me.

19:51:03, 01.01.18

No it is not logical - as soon as you (can) take 3 teams in calculation, there is no way back to 2-way tie-braker calculation, because as soon as you do this, you can compare then, for example Junaki to Gynov and see that Junaki have beaten Gynov (example - I do not have in mind the real results).

Have you read any propositions of tournaments, for example UEFA champions league?

20:30:57, 01.01.18

RR 19:51:03, 01.01.18 No it is not logical - as soon as you (can) take 3 teams in calculation, there is no way back to 2-way tie-braker calculation, because as soon as you do this, you can compare then, for example Junaki to Gynov and see that Junaki have beaten Gynov (example - I do not have in mind the real results).

Have you read any propositions of tournaments, for example UEFA champions league?


Well, your proposed tie breaker (total goal difference) is also outside the 3-way calculation. What I mean is, if after applying the 3-way you still get two teams tied, then you need a NEW tie-breaker between those 2 teams. And now that may be what you proposed (total goal difference) or the direct result, which is the fairest way to go IMO.

21:04:13, 01.01.18

It is outside the 3-way calculation, but it is the logical step. I have not seen yet that you make 2-way tiebrake calculation after you already make 3-way one. The next logical step are total goals in group stage, then total goals scored...

21:42:13, 01.01.18

RR 21:04:13, 01.01.18 It is outside the 3-way calculation, but it is the logical step. I have not seen yet that you make 2-way tiebrake calculation after you already make 3-way one. The next logical step are total goals in group stage, then total goals scored...

Well, when the idea is to separate X tied teams, you do a X-way calculation according to the corresponding criteria (points, goal diff, goals scored). If after that you get Y teams that are still tied the logical step, IMO, is to make a Y-way calculation all over again. And so on...

Now, in this case we have X=3 and Y=2.

Nevo
23:11:50, 01.01.18

there is no 3way calculation in this matter since one team did loose, if the game-engine did not consider draw after full time then it should be a 3 way calculation with goal differences as result, I agree!

Why i think its logical and fair in WL to do it this way is because goal differences are misleading. Why ? well because teams that have no chance getting to playoffs plays youngster for max training. If you have a good draw and face the right team in the beginning of the group stage you will end up with a better goal difference then a team that have had bad timing, there is alot of 12-0 wins at the very end of WL group stage, the game is not a mirror of reality, thats why UEFA rules dont apply well. Just my 2 cents on this one :)

01:03:43, 02.01.18

Nevo 23:11:50, 01.01.18 there is no 3way calculation in this matter since one team did loose, if the game-engine did not consider draw after full time then it should be a 3 way calculation with goal differences as result, I agree!

Why i think its logical and fair in WL to do it this way is because goal differences are misleading. Why ? well because teams that have no chance getting to playoffs plays youngster for max training. If you have a good draw and face the right team in the beginning of the group stage you will end up with a better goal difference then a team that have had bad timing, there is alot of 12-0 wins at the very end of WL group stage, the game is not a mirror of reality, thats why UEFA rules dont apply well. Just my 2 cents on this one :)


Obviously the game engine didn't consider the draws as there are no draws in WL games. The points system is different than the one used for each national league. You either win or lose the game, it doesn't matter if it's in regulation, OT or penalty shots. I agree that the total goal difference is a misleading stat and shouldn't be used as a tie breaker. And it seems like the game agrees to since Junaki Planice finished 3rd.


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